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Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 08:06:15 -0000
Subject: [StemCells] Re: cloning and the stem cell debate
<< I'm sorry, but there is NO evidence that a cloned organism's stem
cells could lead to a cure, yet alone a REAL life saving science. >>
Let's try this...
1) There is evidence in mouse models. Mice with a virus that mimics
the desctruction of ALS were completely paralyzed, then given
injection via lumbar puncture, and within 2 weeks, 80 out of the 80
mice (100%) were stumbling around, they noted how they were walking
all crooked, but then, mice don't have rehabilitation. By
the way, the used HUMAN stem cells, not mice stem cells.
2) Your response might be that it worked in mice but probably not
people. Well, that's not yet known, Bush and others block the way in
getting a speedy path to human tests, but some companies are still
trying hard and pushing for it. An Italian scientific group, not a
backroom operation, reputable scientists, but ones who were sick of
waiting 10 years for some non-scientists to decide it's safe to say
okay to please their voters, implanted stem cells in the spines of
ALS victims, this was very recent, too soon to see benefits just yet.
3) No complications were found in those operations, and to this day
there have been no mention of any cancers or complcations other than
the wobbling walk in the mice models. Better to wobble around than to
be totally paralyized I'd say, as would victims probably choose, and
since humans have rehabilitative physical therapy, it can be fixed.
By the way, that wasn't some little clinic somewhere I'm quoting for
the fun of it, that 80 out of 80 test was at John Hopkins.
<< What does happen in the animal models is the only ES used have not
been cloned and are not at the undifferentiated stages >>
That's not what I've read. ES is so easily hated. Cord Blood has
great potential too, unfortunately, mouse models treated with it
only saw a 25% slow down in the disease, and they were treated
with such high amounts, it probably would have been like a person
getting a pint of it injected in their spines daily. The effect of
those cells was more theraputic, they encouraged neural cells and
protected them to some degree. But that means the ALS victim who'd
pass in 4 years, would pass in 5. Not good enough.
In the ESC tests, the mice saw a REVERSAL of the disease path. Going
from near death to wobble and hobble (ie. the other direction). NO
OTHER test has ever reversed the progress of this deasease, which
along with Huntington's Disease and very few others, is one of the
most untreatable diseases known, and arguably the most horrible to
ever be diagnosed with. I do not have it, but I read enough about it
to care and know that any of us can get it at any time (though
usually between 45-65 yrs old) and the only most doctors tell their
patients is: "We have Rizulole (sic) and it will give you maybe a few
more months, but with bad side effects and otherwise, the MDA will
provide you with a wheelchair, get your house & will in order and
makes sure you find a nice plot for burial".
I've read websites by the score written by those who had it early on,
only to get to the end of their diaries and essays on it and their
lives, to read the paragraph by their spouse (with tears in your
eyes) thanking you for reading and telling you when and how the
victim lost their long hard battle with this incurable disease.
It can easily change your mindset from one of cynicism to one of
potential hope and the fact that one who's told they have a year
or two to live isn't the least bit concerned if an experimental
(or proven) treatment they get could give them cancer in 5-10
years. They'll be long since gone by that point without it.
This is just one of several diseases (such as Altzheimers) where
such a life and death struggle is there and Stem Cells are the
first real hope seen for a potential treatment or even cure.
<< - to reproduce the kidney manufacture it would require a person to
be gestated to the 2nd trimester -e.g. one that already had a
rudimentary kidney. Not only is there no evidence this could not be
reproduced using non-ES, there are serious questions as to
how long we should let this newly created person gestate in order to
get the 'best' working stem cells. >>
Here we go again. Stem Cells can regrow certain parts - as found in
some lab tests, but it's way-way off in people. I don't think it is
as significant of the more generalized use potential of Stem Cells,
as in injection into heart tissue, to fix a small damaged area. In
the above examples as well. Using them to replace cells shows more
hope. In Mouse Models, destroyed neurons were replaced by the new
injected ESC's. They knew right where to go and only affected the
diseased/destroyed tissue, seeming to seek out recreating balance.
Are there risks? Yes. Rejection is very low, and it's controllable,
and for most, a worthwhile risk, cancer? The jury is out, so many are
rightly concerned about it, but it's not shown itself in any real
significant amount in any of the multitude of lab tests (aside from
the John Hopkins test, which was cancer free) to show a risk yet.
Money and support is needed to be sure enough tests can be run and
that the path to human tests can be a few years instead of a few
decades. This is where the real hope is, not organ re-growth.
The idea of using a human clone as a donor bank is beyond sick. Yet
that is probably currently the only way to get a working set of
organs to be transplantable without rejection risk. Even if it
could be done today, I think it's wrong and should be banned.
But what they've seen in animal models tells us that we are
far off from doing it correct even a small minority of the
time. We don't need a bunch of armless two headed babies
born to mad scientists going "oops - try again". We need
the money wasted there spent by groups like the MDA, the
Parkinson's & Altzheimers research groups, etc.
<< ES are probably not the best, because the premise (one wants a
cell that can become anything) is false - one clearly wants one that
has made some level of differentiation. >>
That's where and why they fail. Inability to be used outside of the
donor or some rare similar in DNA human. ESC's are useable in other
donors with little if any rejection risk because they don't have that
fingerprint (differentiation) causing immune reactions in the new
host. It's that simple. They are working on anti-resistance drugs and
I hope they fare well with them. It is still the ultimate to be able
to use any stem cell in anyone without rejection, but until they get
the right kind of anti-resistance drugs, it won't be a reality. And
ESC's can become any cell, be it new white blood cells for the
Leukemia victim, new heart cells for the heart attack victim, new
brain cells for the Parkinsons, Altzheimers or Stroke victims, new
motor neurons / nerves for ALS, MS, Myesthenia Gravis, Gullian Barre,
Huntingtons Disease, Frederick's Ataxia, Lyme Disease victims, etc..
<< The questions are how long is it acceptable to gestage these
individuals - again, by day 40 you have a pretty functional organism
(brain waves recorded, heart, independent movement) - and is it
acceptable to dismember an organism with a functional nervous system
without benefit of anesthetic, etc. for 'science'? >>
That's why ESC's, taken from an embryo that a few days earlier was
just sperm and egg, isn't unethical. Well, a few days old in life
span. 90% of the great renewable source for those is in-vitro fert.
clinics. Invitro Fertilization is almost cloning in itself, and far
more like "playing God" than Stem Cell research. The clinics know
that after a certain amount of months, the embryo's become useless
and have to be thrown away. Instead, they could earmark them to be
shipped to a clinic for reasearch use only, but pro-lifers would
rather they be destroyed, whether through burning, a garbage
disposal, a trash bag, a toilet, they all demise that way.
Sad to think they could have been under a microscope, doing
what they can in their role to fight Leukemia or ALS instead.
Those against it are clearly either ignorant or just plain so
selfish in their self perpetuated morals they truly don't care
about life, life is their agenda to them. They need to get a life.
They need to care about the living. The guy in the wheelchair they
see on their way to an abortion clinic, the one they get mad at to
themselves quietly because that stroke or diabetes/amputee victim in
that wheelchair slows them down. They wish he'd go away, and let them
be about their political moral agenda's uninterrupted. And when they
fight Stem Cell research, they do just that, help them "go away".
MD
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